The Ezra Klein Show

Sebastian Junger came as close as you possibly can to dying. While his doctors struggled to revive him, the veteran reporter and avowed rationalist experienced things that shocked and shook him, leaving him with profound questions and unexpected revelations. In his book, In My Time of Dying, he explores the mysteries and commonalities of people’s near-death experiences. In this episode, which originally aired in May 2024, he joins Sean to talk about what it’s like to almost die and what quantum physics can tell us about the afterlife. Host: Sean Illing (⁠⁠@SeanIlling⁠⁠) Guest: Sebastian Junger, journalist and author of ⁠⁠In My Time of Dying: How I Came Face to Face With the Idea of an Afterlife⁠ Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Help us plan for the future of The Gray Area by filling out a brief survey: ⁠voxmedia.com/survey⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Almost nothing stands the test of time. Machiavelli's writings are a rare exception. Why are we still talking about Machiavelli, nearly 500 years after his death? What is it about his political philosophy that feels so important, prescient, or maybe chilling today? In this episode, Sean speaks with political philosopher and writer Erica Benner about Niccolo Machiavelli’s legacy. The two discuss The Prince, Machiavelli’s views on democracy, and what he might say about the Trump administration were he alive today. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)Guest: Erica Benner, political philosopher, historian, and author of Be Like the Fox Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Help us plan for the future of The Gray Area by filling out a brief survey: voxmedia.com/survey. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re told from a young age to achieve. Get good grades. Get into a good school. Get a good job. Be ambitious about earning a high salary or a high-status position. Some of us love this endless climb. But lots of us, at least once in our lives, find ourselves asking, "What’s the point of all this ambition?"Historian and author Rutger Bregman doesn’t think there is a point to that kind of ambition. Instead, he wants us to be morally ambitious, to measure the value of our achievements based on how much good we do, by how much we improve the world. In this episode, Bregman speaks with guest host Sigal Samuel about how to know if you’re morally ambitious, the value of surrounding yourself with like-minded people, and how to make moral ambition fashionable. Host: Sigal Samuel, Vox senior reporter Guest: Rutger Bregman, historian, author of Moral Ambition, and co-founder of The School for Moral Ambition Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Show Notes Vox’s Good

What do you do when you’re faced with evidence that challenges your ideology? Do you engage with that new information? Are you willing to change your mind about your most deeply held beliefs? Are you pre-disposed to be more rigid or more flexible in your thinking? That’s what political psychologist and neuroscientist Leor Zmigrod wants to know. In her new book, The Ideological Brain, she examines the connection between our biology, our psychology, and our political beliefs. In today’s episode, Leor speaks with Sean about rigid vs. flexible thinking, how our biology and ideology influence each other, and the conditions under which our ideology is more likely to become extreme. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)Guest: Leor Zmigrod, political psychologist, neuroscientist, and author of The Ideological Brain Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Help us plan for the future of The Gray Area by filling out a brief survey: ⁠voxmedia.com/survey⁠. Thank you! Learn more a

There are lots of stories to tell about the Covid pandemic. Most of them, on some level, are about politics, about decisions that affected people’s lives in different — and very unequal — ways. Covid hasn’t disappeared, but the crisis has subsided. So do we have enough distance from it to reflect on what we got right, what we got wrong, and what we can do differently when the next crisis strikes? Professor Frances E. Lee — co-author of In Covid's Wake: How Our Politics Failed Us — thinks we do. In this episode, she speaks with Sean about how our politics, our assumptions, and our biases affected decision-making and outcomes during the pandemic. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Frances E. Lee, professor of politics and public affairs at Princeton and co-author of In Covid's Wake: How Our Politics Failed Us Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Help us plan for the future of The Gray Area by filling out a brief survey: ⁠voxmedia.com/survey⁠. Thank you! L

Philosophy often feels like a disconnected discipline, obsessed with tedious and abstract problems. But MIT professor Kieran Setiya believes philosophical inquiry has a practical purpose outside the classroom — to help guide us through life’s most challenging circumstances. He joins Sean to talk about self-help, FOMO, and midlife crises. This episode originally aired in April 2024. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Kieran Setiya, author of Life Is Hard: How Philosophy Can Help Us Find Our Way and Midlife: A Philosophical Guide. Help us plan for the future of The Gray Area by filling out a brief survey: ⁠voxmedia.com/survey⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What exactly is the basis for democracy? Arguably Iiberalism, the belief that the government serves the people, is the stone on which modern democracy was founded. That notion is so ingrained in the US that we often forget that America could be governed any other way. But political philosopher John Gray believes that liberalism has been waning for a long, long time. He joins Sean to discuss the great liberal thinker Thomas Hobbes and America’s decades-long transition away from liberalism. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: John Gray, political philosopher and author of The New Leviathans: Thoughts After Liberalism Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We have an exciting announcement! Vox Members now get access to ad-free podcasts. If you sign up, you’ll get unlimited access to reporting on vox.com, exclusive newsletters, and all of our podcasts — including The Gray Area — ad-free. Plus, you’ll play a crucial role in helping our show get made. Check it out at vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There’s a lot of uncertainty when it comes to artificial intelligence. Technologists love to talk about all the good these tools can do in the world, all the problems they might solve. Yet, many of those same technologists are also warning us about all the ways AI might upend society, how it might even destroy humanity. Julia Longoria, Vox host and editorial director, spent a year trying to understand that dichotomy. The result is a four-part podcast series — called Good Robot — that explores the ideologies of the people funding, building, and driving the conversation about AI. Today Julia speaks with Sean about how the hopes and fears of these individuals are influencing the technology that will change all of our lives. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Vox Host and Editorial Director Julia Longoria Good Robot is available in the Vox Unexplainable feed. Episode 1 Episode 2 Episode 3 Episode 4 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why do we keep comparing AI to humans? Jaron Lanier — virtual reality pioneer, digital philosopher, and the author of several best-selling books on technology — thinks that we should stop. In his view, technology is only valuable if it has beneficiaries. So instead of asking "What can AI do?," we should be asking, "What can AI do for us?" In today’s episode, Jaron and Sean discuss a humanist approach to AI and how changing our understanding of AI tools could change how we use, develop, and improve them. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Jaron Lanier, computer scientist, artist, and writer. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

American government has a speed issue. Both parties are slow to solve problems. Slow to build new things. Slow to make any change at all. Until now. The Trump administration is pushing through sweeping changes as fast as possible, completely changing the dynamic. And the Democrats? They’ve been slow to respond. Slow to mount a defense. Slow to change tactics. Still. Ezra Klein — writer, co-founder of Vox, and host of The Ezra Klein Show for the New York Times — would like to offer a course correction. In a new book, Abundance, Klein and co-author Derek Thompson, argue that the way to make a better, brighter future, is to build and invent the things we need. To do that, liberals need to push past hyper-coalitional and bureaucratic ways of getting things done. In this episode, Ezra speaks with Sean about the policy decisions that have rendered government inert and how we can make it easier to build the things we want and need. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Ezra Klein, co-author of Abundance and h

Humans hate uncertainty. It makes us feel unsafe and uneasy. We often organize our lives to avoid it. When it's foisted upon us, we don’t always know how to act. But writer and journalist Maggie Jackson argues that uncertainty can actually be good for us, and that we’re doing ourselves a disservice by avoiding it. She tells Sean that embracing uncertainty can spark creativity, improve problem solving skills, and help us lead better, more hopeful lives. This episode originally aired in January 2024. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Maggie Jackson, author of Uncertain: The Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How often do you find silence? And do you know what to do with it when you do? Today’s guest is essayist and travel writer Pico Iyer. His latest book is Aflame: Learning From Silence, which recounts his experiences living at a Catholic monastery in California after losing his home in a fire. He speaks with Sean about the restorative power of silence, and how being quiet can prepare us for a busy and overstimulated world. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Pico Iyer, writer and author of Aflame: Learning From Silence Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you could change anything about your personality, anything at all, what would it be? And why would you want to change it?Writer Olga Khazan spent a year trying to answer those questions, and documented the experience in her new book Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. In this episode Sean speaks with Olga about the science of personality change, the work it takes to change yourself, and what makes up a personality, anyway. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Olga Khazan, author of Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Are you ever happier not knowing something? As Aristotle famously claimed, “All human beings want to know.” But denial and avoidance are also human impulses. Sometimes they’re even more powerful than our curiosity. In this episode Sean speaks with professor Mark Lilla about when we’re better off searching for knowledge and when we’re better off living in the dark. Lilla’s new book is called Ignorance and Bliss: On Wanting Not to Know. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Mark Lilla, professor of humanities at Columbia University and author of Ignorance and Bliss: On Wanting Not to Know. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What do you think of America’s institutions? Alana Newhouse, founder and editor-in-chief of Tablet Magazine, says that may be the most important political question in America. In an essay published more than two years ago, Newhouse argued that there is a new political divide, one in which your place — and the place of your allies and adversaries — is determined by whether you believe that America’s institutions should be fixed or destroyed. Her argument feels eerily prescient in light of the Trump administration’s recent efforts to dismantle government programs. In this episode, which first aired in February of 2023, Alana and Sean debate what that divide means for America’s present and future, and whether it supersedes labels like "left" or "right" and "Democrat" or "Republican." Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Alana Newhouse (@alananewhouse) editor-in-chief, Tablet and author of "Brokenism." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Americans are spending an historic amount of time alone, a phenomenon that is often referred to as an "epidemic of loneliness." But are we actually lonely? Or do we prefer being by ourselves? And if we do, what does that mean for us and our society? Today’s guest is journalist Derek Thompson, who, in a recent essay for the Atlantic, challenges the conventional wisdom around loneliness. He argues that Americans prefer solitude, and that preference presents a wholly different kind of challenge for the country. Derek and Sean discuss the far-reaching effects of America’s antisocial behavior, including what it means for our society, our politics, and our future. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Derek Thompson, staff writer, The Atlantic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Where is your attention right now? Where was it a minute ago? A second ago? Where will it be a minute from now? One of the primary features of this age — the age of the internet and smartphones and algorithmic feeds — is that our attention is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. This is no accident. Our devices and apps are engineered to constantly alert us to things that are important and to things that are not. That’s because holding our attention is valuable. The time we spend reading, watching, and listening to content on our digital devices has been commodified, and that commodity is fueling the economy of the digital age. Today’s guest is Chris Hayes, the host of All In with Chris Hayes on MSNBC and author of The Sirens' Call: How Attention Became the World’s Most Endangered Resource. Chris speaks with Sean about how the attention industry is changing our economy, our society, and ourselves. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling). Guest: Chris Hayes, host of All In with Chris Hayes on MSNBC and author of 

What does it take to be happy? Professor of psychology Laurie Santos just might have the answer. This week The Gray Area takes a break from its regular programming to bring you an episode of another podcast that we love. In this episode of Stay Tuned With Preet, host Preet Bharara interviews Laurie Santos, a psychology professor at Yale University, about what we all can do to be happier. The two discuss how to maximize your happiness, how to bring meaning to your career, self-care vs. caring for others, and the barriers to happiness that parents face. Host: Preet Bharara, host of Stay Tuned With Preet Guest: Laurie Santos, professor of psychology at Yale University, and host of The Happiness Lab Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is the first thing that you touch in the morning? What about the last thing you touch before you go to sleep? For many of us, it’s our phone. Digital devices are with us constantly, often putting a digital layer between us and the world. The benefits of this are enormous: convenience, efficiency, and constant stimulation. But is there a personal cost to living in a mediated reality? Today’s guest is Christine Rosen, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the author of the new book The Extinction of Experience: Being Human in a Disembodied World. Christine and Sean discuss how the digital revolution is affecting our social skills and our quality of life. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Christine Rosen, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the author of The Extinction of Experience: Being Human in a Disembodied World. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices